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Forum za pripadnike manje vidljivih delova populacije.
Transrodno, Interseksualno, Aseksualno, Queer, ...

Moderatori: Hys., Moderators

Korisnikov avatar
By Mariška
#1663203
@ ...Sitnicava...

Hvala na ("virtuelnoj") podršci!

Off topic: Zanimljiv ti je potpis! Ali nisam baš sasvim siguran da sam ga pravilno razumeo...
By polarlicht4.1
#1664267
Originally posted by Kurmaher
GENDER IDENTITY
(psychological sense of self)

man -------------------------------- two spirit/third gender ------------------------ woman



GENDER EXPRESSION
(communication of gender)

masculine ------------------------------ androgynous ----------------------------- feminine
Sada će se Ulix i Sunce smejati ali moram - meni je ova podela problematična. Pretpostavlja da su muško/žensko dve stabilne celine/datosti sa oba kraja spektra bez obzira što postoji i srednji termin ili baš zbog toga što postoji srednji termin jer ih srednji termin (treći rod/androginija) posreduje. Srednji termin je samo puki spoj muškog/ženskog koji obezbeđuje lagodno kretanje s jednog kraja spektra na drugi a da ih ne dovodi u pitanje.

Tako da, na kraju, ovaj prikaz nema nikakav potencijal bilo za politički aktivizam bilo i za šta drugo već samo pokušava da održi shematizam binarnosti roda koji pogoduje heteropatrijarhatu.
By Kurmaher
#1664938
Naravno, rekoh da tu ima jos dosta toga i da je to samo nesto za pocetak, da ne bismo mesali intersex sa androginijom :) .

Sto se tice treceg roda i androginije - meni oni ne predstavljaju samo spoj muskarca i zene ili muskog i zenskog, vec i moguce nepostojanje bilo cega od ta dva.
Ne svidjaju mi se ni termini two-spirit i third gender jer nekako podrazumevaju bas spoj dva ili nesto trece... a nema moguceg nespoja/spoja vise od dva/neceg cetvrtog, petog...
Pretpostavlja da su muško/žensko dve stabilne celine/datosti sa oba kraja spektra bez obzira što postoji i srednji termin ili baš zbog toga što postoji srednji termin jer ih srednji termin (treći rod/androginija) posreduje.
Hm, ne znam da li razumeh.
Mozes li da malo detaljnije objasnis na sta mislis :) ?

Mislis da ovo podrazumeva samo po 3 "boje" (crveno, roze*, belo), ali ne i nijanse (crveno sa jednom kapljicom belog, crveno sa dve kapljice belog...), pa mu je to nedostatak?
Ili mislis da crveno i belo uopste ne postoje, a ova tabela navodi na tu pomisao, pa joj je to nedostatak?

[size=-1]* ovo roze se ne uklapa u ono iz prvog dela - da za mene srednje moze da predstavlja i odsustvo, a ne 50:50 prisustvo, ali tu je radi ilustracije[/size]
Korisnikov avatar
By svejedno
#1664946
Cek, sad meni ti nisi jasan, sto ti onda smeta npr. izraz 'third gender'?

..

To mene, za razliku od 'two-spirit' bas podseca na odsustvo ova dva, jel. I ostavlja mogucnost treceg/cetvrtog/petog etc.
By Kurmaher
#1664951
Treci podrazumeva prethodna dva, i stoji u opoziciji prema njima.
Ako postoji nesto imenovano kao "treci", ljudi cesto nece ni traziti "cetvrti".
Hm, da li je bolje objasnjeno?
Korisnikov avatar
By svejedno
#1664959
Pa jeste, ali i nije bas ,)

....Imas taj 1. i 2. npr, i imas treci.


..

Jedino sto ga stavise bas na sredinu te binarne podele koja smeta polarlichtu.

..


Sad, za njega znam, a ti mi delujes tako, da ste svakako upuceniji od mene u slicne stvari, ali meni 'TRECI rod' bukvalno znaci TRECI. Koji veze NE MORA imati sa 'primarna' dva.


Sto se tice same reci, ne 'mesta na tabeli' ,)


..

No, i ja ulazim u sitna crevca ovde, samo me interesovalo sto ti smeta sama konstrukcija, i objasnio si.


Hvala :)
By polarlicht4.1
#1665362
Originally posted by Kurmaher
Ne svidjaju mi se ni termini two-spirit i third gender jer nekako podrazumevaju bas spoj dva ili nesto trece... a nema moguceg nespoja/spoja vise od dva/neceg cetvrtog, petog...
Da, i to. Pored toga, treba imati na umu poreklo termina "third gender" i "two-spirited". Ovaj poslednji je (donekle) preuzet od američkih Indijanaca dok je prvi, čini mi se, inspirisan indijskim hidžrama ako ne ranim nemačkim seksolozima (što bi termin činilo još nesretnijim zapravo). Nijedan ni drugi, a u skladu sa savremenom postkolonijalnom teorijom pored ostalog, ne mogu da opišu rodnu raznovrsnost u zapadnim društvima, na stranu to što nisam siguran da identični modeli rodne raznovrsnosti postoje u svim zapadnim društvima.
Originally posted by Kurmaher
Ili mislis da crveno i belo uopste ne postoje, a ova tabela navodi na tu pomisao, pa joj je to nedostatak?
Upravo to mislim. Kako sve ovo pišem sa pozicije filozofije razlike i njoj srodne queer teorije, smatram da je bilo kakav identitet neodrživ. Kao strateška pozicija u političkoj borbi za vidljivost i ravnopravnost možda ali na ontološkom nivou (a i iskustvenom) tako nešto mi je potpuno nepotrebno.
Korisnikov avatar
By Mariška
#1665704
Originally posted by Kurmaher
I tend to agree ;) .
Me too.
Korisnikov avatar
By svejedno
#1666241
Originally posted by polarlicht4.1

Upravo to mislim. Kako sve ovo pišem sa pozicije filozofije razlike i njoj srodne queer teorije, smatram da je bilo kakav identitet neodrživ. Kao strateška pozicija u političkoj borbi za vidljivost i ravnopravnost možda ali na ontološkom nivou (a i iskustvenom) tako nešto mi je potpuno nepotrebno.


Joj.... ,) Sad bih te pitao sve i svasta, posebno sto se tice gledista 'identitet je neodrziv na ontoloskom nivou'....
(s cim se slazem... ...donekle, recimo)
....a u vezi 'svih intersex kombinacija' i njihove opravdanosti samim tim?


Posebno sto se tice 'binarnih intersex tranzicija' (m. u z.) i to?



..

Hm..'opravdanost' je, opet, losa rec, al nadam se da kapiras sta zelim reci.







..

No, mene samo interesuje svasta, a ti si, verujem, mnogo vise procitao, proucio & razmislio ,)
Korisnikov avatar
By Lepa Lezbejka
#1753129
Originally posted by SvakiMarkoRadiNaopako
Veliki Majkl Džekson, prva trnansrasna osoba u istoriji, pokazao nam je da je moguće promeniti rasu, da je rasa, baš kao i pol, samo spoljašnji ogrtač, da se ogrtač može svući i umesto njega navući neki drugi ogrtač, neke druge boje.
SvakiMarkoRadiNaopako, ne znam odakle ti informacija da je Majkl transrasna osoba, jer niti je promenio pol, niti rasu. Ako aludiras na "izbeljivanje kozhe", ja zaista nikad nisam cula da tako nesto uopste postoji, sem da mu konstantovan vitiligo, a da je neujednacenost boje koze koju isti izaziva (mozda si primetio da nosi flastere na prstima) prekrivana jakom sminkom i zato izgleda da mje "pobeleo". A uvek volim da istaknem- da li su ljudi koji odlaze u solarijum da pocrne izdajnici bele rase?
A sto se pola tice.. mhmm... mm....yummy.. veruj mi, Majkl je bio veoma obdaren... (preporucujem ti klipove na jutjubu sa njegovim "golden pants"...)
Korisnikov avatar
By nsBeckie
#1753285
hm... niko nije rekao da je Majkl Dzekson promenio pol...

A sto se tice rase, koliko ja znam on jeste isao na operaciju kojom su mu promenili pigment u kozi... kakve su se komplikacije posle desile i koliko je posle operacija ili intervencija imao zbog tih komplikacija, ne znam, mada ih je sigurno bilo poprilicno

u svakom slucaju, poenta onoga sto je Marko hteo da kaze, jeste da boja koze ili pol osobe jesu samo spoljasnje karakteristike, ali da je osoba ono sto je iznutra i sto se mozda ne vidi na prvi pogled kao sto odmah uocimo boju necije koze, ili pol
Korisnikov avatar
By Lepa Lezbejka
#1753893
Originally posted by nsBeckie

hm... niko nije rekao da je Majkl Dzekson promenio pol...

A sto se tice rase, koliko ja znam on jeste isao na operaciju kojom su mu promenili pigment u kozi... kakve su se komplikacije posle desile i koliko je posle operacija ili intervencija imao zbog tih komplikacija, ne znam, mada ih je sigurno bilo poprilicno

u svakom slucaju, poenta onoga sto je Marko hteo da kaze, jeste da boja koze ili pol osobe jesu samo spoljasnje karakteristike, ali da je osoba ono sto je iznutra i sto se mozda ne vidi na prvi pogled kao sto odmah uocimo boju necije koze, ili pol
What is vitiligo, and what causes it?

Vitiligo (vit-ill-EYE-go) is a pigmentation disorder in which melanocytes (the cells that make pigment) in the skin are destroyed. As a result, white patches appear on the skin in different parts of the body. Similar patches also appear on both the mucous membranes (tissues that line the inside of the mouth and nose), and the retina (inner layer of the eyeball). The hair that grows on areas affected by vitiligo sometimes turns white.

The cause of vitiligo is not known, but doctors and researchers have several different theories. There is strong evidence that people with vitiligo inherit a group of three genes that make them susceptible to depigmentation. The most widely accepted view is that the depigmentation occurs because vitiligo is an autoimmune disease -- a disease in which a person's immune system reacts against the body's own organs or tissues. As such, people's bodies produce proteins called cytokines that alter their pigment-producing cells and cause these cells to die. Another theory is that melanocytes destroy themselves. Finally, some people have reported that a single event such as sunburn or emotional distress triggered vitiligo; however, these events have not been scientifically proven as causes of vitiligo.

Who is affected by vitiligo?

About 0.5 to 1 percent of the world's population, or as many as 65 million people, have vitiligo. In the United States, 1 to 2 million people have the disorder. Half the people who have vitiligo develop it before age 20; most develop it before their 40th birthday. The disorder affects both sexes and all races equally; however, it is more noticeable in people with dark skin.

Vitiligo seems to be somewhat more common in people with certain autoimmune diseases. These autoimmune diseases include hyperthyroidism (an overactive thyroid gland), adrenocortical insufficiency (the adrenal gland does not produce enough of the hormone called corticosteroid), alopecia areata (patches of baldness), and pernicious anemia (a low level of red blood cells caused by the failure of the body to absorb vitamin B12). Scientists do not know the reason for the association between vitiligo and these autoimmune diseases. However, most people with vitiligo have no other autoimmune disease.

Vitiligo may also be hereditary; that is, it can run in families. Children whose parents have the disorder are more likely to develop vitiligo. In fact, 30 percent of people with vitiligo have a family member with the disease. However, only 5 to 7 percent of children will get vitiligo even if a parent has it, and most people with vitiligo do not have a family history of the disorder.

..............

What treatment options are available?

The main goal of treating vitiligo is to improve appearance. Therapy for vitiligo takes a long time-it usually must be continued for 6 to 18 months. The choice of therapy depends on the number of white patches; their location, sizes, and how widespread they are; and what you prefer in terms of treatment. Each patient responds differently to therapy, and a particular treatment may not work for everyone. Current treatment options for vitiligo include medical, surgical, and adjunctive therapies (therapies that can be used along with surgical or medical treatments).

Medical therapies

A number of medical therapies, most of which are applied topically, can reduce the appearance of white patches with vitiligo. These are some of the most commonly used ones:

* Topical steroid therapy -- Steroid creams may be helpful in repigmenting (returning the color to) white patches, particularly if they are applied in the initial stages of the disease. Corticosteroids are a group of drugs similar to hormones such as cortisone, which are produced by the adrenal glands. Doctors often prescribe a mild topical corticosteroid cream for children under 10 years old and a stronger one for adults. You must apply the cream to the white patches on the skin for at least 3 months before seeing any results. Corticosteriod creams are the simplest and safest treatment for vitiligo, but are not as effective as psoralen photochemotherapy (see below). Yet, like any medication, these creams can cause side effects. For this reason, the doctor will monitor you closely for skin shrinkage and skin striae (streaks or lines on the skin). These side effects are more likely to occur in areas where the skin is thin, such as on the face and armpits, or in the genital region. They can be minimized by using weaker formulations of steroid creams in these areas.


* Psoralen photochemotherapy -- Also known as psoralen and ultraviolet A therapy, or PUVA therapy, this is probably the most effective treatment for vitiligo available in the United States. The goal of PUVA therapy is to repigment the white patches. However, it is time-consuming, and care must be taken to avoid side effects, which can sometimes be severe. Psoralen is a drug that contains chemicals that react with ultraviolet light to cause darkening of the skin. The treatment involves taking psoralen by mouth (orally) or applying it to the skin (topically). This is followed by carefully timed exposure to sunlight or to ultraviolet A (UVA) light that comes from a special lamp. Typically, you will receive treatments in your doctor's office so you can be carefully watched for any side effects. You must minimize exposure to sunlight at other times. Both oral and topical psoralen photochemotherapy are described below.


o Topical psoralen photochemotherapy -- often used for people with a small number of depigmented patches affecting a limited part of the body, it is also used for children 2 years old and older who have localized patches of vitiligo. Treatments are done in a doctor's office under artificial UVA light once or twice a week. The doctor or nurse applies a thin coat of psoralen to your depigmented patches about 30 minutes before exposing you to enough UVA light to turn the affected area pink. The doctor usually increases the dose of UVA light slowly over many weeks. Eventually, the pink areas fade and a more normal skin color appears. After each treatment, you wash your skin with soap and water and apply a sunscreen before leaving the doctor's office.

There are two major potential side effects of topical PUVA therapy: (1) severe sunburn and blistering and (2) too much repigmentation or darkening (hyperpigmentation) of the treated patches or the normal skin surrounding the vitiligo. You can minimize your chances of sunburn if you avoid exposure to direct sunlight after each treatment. Usually, hyperpigmentation is a temporary problem that eventually disappears when treatment is stopped.


o Oral psoralen photochemotherapy -- used for people with extensive vitiligo (affecting more than 20 percent of the body) or for people who do not respond to topical PUVA therapy, oral psoralen is not recommended for children under 10 years of age because it increases the risk of damage to the eyes caused by conditions such as cataracts. For oral PUVA therapy, you take a prescribed dose of psoralen by mouth about 2 hours before exposure to artificial UVA light or sunlight. If artificial light is used, the doctor adjusts the dose of light until the skin in the areas being treated becomes pink. Treatments are usually given 2 or 3 times a week, but never 2 days in a row.

For patients who cannot go to a facility to receive PUVA therapy, the doctor may prescribe psoralen that can be used with natural sunlight exposure. The doctor will give you careful instructions on carrying out treatment at home and monitor you during scheduled checkups.

Known side effects of oral psoralen include sunburn, nausea and vomiting, itching, abnormal hair growth, and hyperpigmentation. Oral psoralen photochemotherapy may also increase the risk of skin cancer, although the risk is minimal at doses used for vitiligo. If you are undergoing oral PUVA therapy, you should apply sunscreen and avoid direct sunlight for 24 to 48 hours after each treatment to avoid sunburn and reduce the risk of skin cancer. To avoid eye damage, particularly cataracts, you should also wear protective UVA sunglasses for 18 to 24 hours after each treatment.

* DEPIGMENTATION -- involves fading the rest of the skin on the body to match the areas that are already white. For people who have vitiligo on more than 50 percent of their bodies, depigmentation may be the best treatment option. Patients apply the drug monobenzyl ether of hydroquinone (monobenzone or Benoquin*) twice a day to pigmented areas until they match the already-depigmented areas. You must avoid direct skin-to-skin contact with other people for at least 2 hours after applying the drug, as transfer of the drug may cause depigmentation of the other person's skin. The major side effect of depigmentation therapy is inflammation (redness and swelling) of the skin. You may experience itching or dry skin. Depigmentation tends to be permanent and is not easily reversed. In addition, a person who undergoes depigmentation will always be unusually sensitive to sunlight.

*Brand names included in this booklet are provided as examples only, and their inclusion does not mean that these products are endorsed by the National Institutes of Health or any other Government agency. Also, if a particular brand name is not mentioned, this does not mean or imply that the product is unsatisfactory.

..............
Dakle, depigmentacija kako bi se lecio vitiligo, a ne da bi se menjala rasa.
Pomenuo je da je TRANS, pa sam dosla do zakljucka da je mislio da je MJ promenio pol.
Poentu sam shvatila, samo sam zelela da objasnim ovu zabludu glede Majkla.
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