Originally posted by Ulix
Originally posted by vihalc
Naravno da se AZT jod uvek koristi u kombo-terapijama.
Nista tu nema "naravno". Rekao si da se vise ne koristi, sad kazes da se koristi. Odluci se. Ili jos bolje: pitaj nekog ko zna.
Doze su manje jer se istovremeno primenjuje veliki broj lekova, bas iz razloga da se redukuju nezeljeni efekti, spreci razvoj rezistencije na terapiju, a poboljsa kompletan ucinak.
Danas se pocinje sa terapijiama kada broj CD4+ limfocita opadne ispod 400 ili 350, jer terapija omogucava "podizanje" imuniteta i samim tim SPRECAVA pojavu simptoma bolesti. Bolje spreciti nego leciti je logika kojom ce se voditi svako kome je stalo do pacijenta.
Pitao si za progresiju bolesti i ona je sasvim individualna stvar. Brojke kojima se barata su prosek - ima pacijenata koji su od momenta infekcije do AIDS-a dosli za nepune dve godine, dok takodje postoje ljudi koji su po desetak godina HIV+, bez znakova AIDS-a. To je koliko stvar genetske konstitucije, toliko i trenutnog stanja imunskog sistema u momentu infekcije, pa i eventualnog komorbiditeta, osobina samog soja HIV-a i daleko je od toga da je tako prosto kao sto ti mislis.
Jedno je, doduse, sigurno: bez terapije SIDA je sasvim izvesna, samo je pitanje vremena.
AZT (tj. azidotimidin) spada u grupu nukleozidnih inhibitora reverzne transkpritaze. RT (reverzna transpriptaza) je enzim koji virusnu RNK prevodi u DNK, koja se kasnije integrise u celijski genom. AZT deluje tako sto sprecava sintezu virusne DNK. Dakle, nisi dobro shvatio mehanizam dejstva, nema tu nikakvog ubijanja celije domacina niti haosa.
1. AZT monoterapija se vise ne koristi na zapadu. Doze AZT-a u kombo terapijama su drasticno smanjene, a ponekad se uoste ni ne uzima. Ne razumem, ti sada kao hoces da pokazes kako je zvanicna teorija tacna tako sto si se zakacio na moj predhodni komentar ? Nemam sta ja tu da se odlucujem ili da pitam: odes na google i lepo uporedis doze AZT-a danas i pre 20 godina.
2. Sto se tice kombinacija koje "redukuju" nezeljene efekte, mislim da slika govori vise od 1000 reci. Evo vam linkovi sa slikama posledica trovanja novijim "lekom" Nevirapinom :
http://www.aids-images.ch/index.php?wha ... =1696&g=56
http://aidsmyth.addr.com/viramune.htm
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/w ... heff.shtml
i par bez slika:
http://www.scienceguardian.com/blog/2007/08/
http://www.virusmyth.com/aids/index/nevirapine.htm
3. Sto se tice "bolje spreciti nego leciti" to se u aid$ zoni kaze "hit hard, hit early". Strategija koju je pre oko 10 godina promovisao David Ho i koja se pokazala potpuno pogresna. Cak sta vise, ne samo da su disidenti kritikovali njegov matematicki model, nego su ga odbacili i naucnici iz zvanicnog aid$ tabora.
Disidentski link:
http://www.virusmyth.com/aids/hiv/cffiction.htm
4. sto se "podizanja" imuniteta tice, kako objasnjavas tzv. "Immune restitution disease" (bolest obnovljenog imunog sistema) ? HAART terapija "podigne imunitet", svi parametri se lepo usklade a pacijent umre. Sto bi mi rekli: operacija uspela, pacijent umro.
Disidentski link:
http://aras.ab.ca/haart-IRD.html
5. ukoliko je razvoj bolesti individualna stvar, i ako zavisi od genetike, zar nije bolje prvo sacekati i videti sta se desava sa pacijentom, nego ga odmah nakljukati lekovima ? Ja, priznajem, zaista nisam znao da se danas prepisuju lekovi ako broj zrnaca opadne ispod 400 ili 350. Oduvek sam mislio da je granica 200. To pomeranje granice je sa moje tacke gledista stvarno strasno. Koliko osoba bez ikakvih simptoma ce se preko noci ubeleziti kao "slucajevi side" ? Ako pomere granicu za jos samo 200, ja sa mojih 550 zrnaca bi se lako nasao na listi obolelih, bez obzira da li trcim maraton ili ne (ok, ja samo 5 do 10 km :-) ).
6. Kazes: "bez terapije SIDA je sasvim izvesna, samo je pitanje vremena." Ja te pitam, a koliko to vremena ? Pre 20 godina su nam davali samo godinu ili dve. Danas tvrde 10, 15, a mozda i nikad ("zavisi od genetike" ?). A sutra ?
7. Sto se tice AZT-a, hvala na objasnjenju. Eto, i ja nesto novo da naucim. Ne bio lenj, uzput sam procitao uputstvo za Retrovir, gde kaze:
CLINICAL PHARMACOLOGY
Zidovudine is an inhibitor of the in vitro replication of some retroviruses including HIV. This drug is a thymidine analogue in which the 3'-hydroxy (-OH) group is replaced by an azido (-N3) group. Cellular thymidine kinase converts zidovudine into zidovudine monophosphate. The monophosphate is further converted into the diphosphate by cellular thymidylate kinase and to the triphosphate derivative by other cellular enzymes. Zidovudine triphosphate interferes with the HIV viral RNA dependent DNA polymerase (reverse transcriptase) and thus, inhibits viral replication. Zidovudine triphosphate also inhibits cellular alpha-DNA polymerase, but at concentrations 100-fold higher than those required to inhibit reverse transcriptase. In vitro, zidovudine triphosphate has been shown to be incorporated into growing chains of DNA by viral reverse transcriptase. When incorporation by the viral enzyme occurs, the DNA chain is terminated. Studies in cell culture suggest that zidovudine incorporation by cellular alpha-DNA polymerase may occur, but only to a very small extent and not in all test systems. Cellular y-DNA polymerase shows some sensitivity to inhibition by the zidovudine triphosphate with 50% inhibitory concentration (IC50) values 400 to 900 times greater than that for HIV reverse transcriptase.
Dakle, iako moze da se ugradi u DNK lanac, vidim da to nije glavni nacin delovanja. Problem je sto njegov uticaj na enzim reverse transcriptase ipak napravi haos u celiji i narocito utice na mitohondrije:
“Despite many unresolved physiopathological questions, there are coherent experimental and clinical arguments for the existence of mitochondrial toxicity following perinatal exposure to zidovudine [AZT], alone or in combination with lamivudine [3TC]. This effect may be transitory or persistent. Although, the clinical significance of the various biological and/or histopathological mitochondrial anomalies found at birth in NA-exposed animals or children has not been formally established, the high incidence of mitochondrial neurological diseases observed in the French cohort has not been contradicted to date in other cohorts.”
Blanche S et al. Mitochondrial dysfunction following perinatal exposure to nucleoside analogues. AIDS. 2006 Aug 22;20(13):1685-1690.
Sve u svemu, ja i dalje tvrdim da AZT ubija celije i pravi haos.
Linkovi:
Retrovir uputstvo:
http://www.virusmyth.com/aids/hiv/pdr-azt.htm
Citati iz radova o uticaju AZT-a:
a) AZT i mitohondrija:
http://www.aras.ab.ca/azt-mitochondria.html
b) AZT, krv i kostana srz:
http://www.aras.ab.ca/azt-blood.html
c) AZT i misicni poremecaji:
http://www.aras.ab.ca/azt-muscle.html
d) AZT i rak:
http://www.aras.ab.ca/azt-cancer.html
e) AZT i ostalo:
http://www.aras.ab.ca/azt.html
8. I na kraju, nebih lenj pa posetih i Wikipediju. Evo sta tamo pisu o AZT-u:
"
In February 1985, Samuel Broder, Hiroaki Mitsuya, and Robert Yarchoan, three scientists in the National Cancer Institute (NCI), collaborating with Janet Rideout and several other scientists at Burroughs Wellcome (now GlaxoSmithKline), started working on it as an AIDS drug. After showing that this drug was an effective agent against HIV in vitro, the team conducted the initial clinical trial that provided evidence that it could increase CD4 counts in AIDS patients.
A placebo-controlled randomized trial of AZT was subsequently conducted by Burroughs-Wellcome, in which it was shown that AZT could prolong the life of patients with AIDS. Burroughs Wellcome Co. filed for a patent on AZT in 1985. The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approved the drug (via the then-new FDA accelerated approval system) for use against HIV, AIDS, and AIDS Related Complex (ARC, a now-defunct medical term for pre-AIDS illness) on March 20, 1987, and then as a preventive treatment in 1990. It was initially administered in much higher dosages than today, typically 400 mg every four hours (even at night). However, the unavailability at that time of alternatives to treat AIDS affected the risk/benefit ratio, with the certain toxicity of HIV infection outweighing the risk of drug toxicity. One of AZT's side effects includes anemia, a common complaint in early trials.
"
Sta meni oicno ovde jako cudno zvuci:
- Dr. Robert Gallo i USA sekretar zdravlja Margaret Heckler su objavili da je HIV moguci uzrok side na cuvenoj konferenciji za stampu 1984 godine !
- Burroughs Wellcome Co. je prijavio patent za AZT 1985 godine ! (nakon samo godinu dana od otkrica hiv-a)
- The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) je odobrio AZT 1987 godine ! (nakon samo tri godine)
Pitam se ja: kako je kompanija Burroughs Wellcome Co. uspela za samo GODINU DANA da utvrdi da AZT produzava zivot aid$ pacijenata ? (A placebo-controlled randomized trial of AZT was subsequently conducted by Burroughs-Wellcome, in which it was shown that AZT could prolong the life of patients with AIDS.) ???
Ja sam "pozitivan" preko tri godine i NISTA, AMA BAS NISTA mi se ne desava ! Da li mogu ja na slican nacin da patentiram kiselu vodu ?
OK. Sada stvarno dosta za ovaj put. Ako imate jos pitanja ili prigovora, citajte clanke na internetu. Dao sam vam toliko linkova, a mozete malo i vi sami nesto novo da pronadjete.
